Here is a writing I have been working on for some time now. I have tried to pull together all my ideas from the past couple weeks of discussion on this site and state them concisely and completely as possible. I apologize for the length of this posting, however, this is a huge topic. I intend this to be the last posting on this subject before moving on to something else, as well, unless popular demand deems otherwise. Anyway, enjoy and feel free to comment below. Thank you all for your time.
Morality, as a guidepost for human decisions, is built into each person. The long standing debate has been where this morality comes from. Some hold to an evolutionary theory explaining how social animals evolved into humans, and as such, the necessary rights and wrongs that develop in a social system are the instincts that have carried into humanity, as we are, in the end, only animals anyway.
Others, (myself included), hold that religion, (particularly the Christian religion), best explains morality. In this view, God has placed in each person a moral compass, built into our souls, residing in our flesh. This moral compass, often called our conscience, guides us to hold certain things as right, (i.e. giving, caring attitudes to others), and certain things as wrong, (murder, stealing, etc.). Christianity also holds all Christians accountable to God for the things they do. This accountability is one of the strongest differences in Christian morality and evolutionist morality.
So, in the end, morality is debated not on the basis of what it is, but on the basis of why it is there; whether through God or through evolution. This debate, then, changes depending on how it is framed. If it is started from a biblical standpoint, it becomes a debate about whether religion can explain the world best or not. If the debate is framed from the evolutionist’s standpoint, it then becomes whether evolution can answer the questions of the world.
Furthermore, because of this prerequisite way of framing the debate, as well as the length of time this debate has taken place, each side can pull from its “bag of tricks” that has been developed for years. There are certain things which cannot be known by modern science; this is one of them.
Where does that leave us in today’s society then? We have the people who hold to the Christian view of things and battle for morality and justice. We also have the Evolutionists who will battle for a more relativist approach to morality. Yet we live in a country where we both have a chance to speak, and everyone has a choice to make freely and openly.
All that’s left, really, is for us to each make our personal case for morality, religion, politics, etc. and let the individual decide by asking questions and debating what is presented. So, here is my concise presentation of my beliefs.
1. - If the Bible and Christianity is everything it claims to be, and is the Word of God, it should present itself with all the answers needed to respond to critics of it. I believe wholly and truly it does. [2 Tim 3:16; Matt 2:18; 1 Cor 2:7-14]
2. - If religion itself is important and true, each person should be unashamed of presenting it fully. [Phil 1:5-6; 1 Thess 2:13]
3. - Morality is written in our hearts by God, as presented in the Bible, and manifest in each person through the conscience. [Rom 2:15]
4. - Each person then must choose whether to answer God’s calling or ignore it and move into a lifestyle of sin. This lifestyle is full of constantly trying to justify personal decisions through man’s corrupt mind, and therefore, can never be complete, but instead, always searching. [Rom 1:18-32]
Of course, the evolutionist / naturalist could make a list of their beliefs too. I believe, however, that their answers would be missing something (God), full of errors in other places (science changes it’s mind rapidly), and incomplete (science cannot know the beginning or the end), and therefore incorrect.
Hopefully my presentation here is clear enough to get my point across, well written enough to be clear, and open enough to allow for questioning and debate. Thanks again for taking the time to read and being a part of this sites mission; open debate in a public forum about issues that effect us everyday. Thank you.
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I haven't read all of this yet. I need to get some sleep but I just wanted to say that I appreciate the input that Mr. Thorne has contributed and the manner in which he presents his side. A lot of people (on both side it seems) when their foundations are challenged and perhaps shaken a bit answer back with vulgar nonsense or just leave and run away, and I really appreciate that not happening here.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone wants to check the verses he quoted and ya don't have a Bible, blueletterbible.org is a solid website.
ReplyDeleteI agree with pretty much everything you said here Mr. Lovelady. I do struggle with your view on Catholicism. But that's a heart matter, growing up in the catholic church for 18 years has an affect on that. But this topic is something not related to the topic at hand and I'm slightly sorry for bringing it up and it doesn't need to be addressed here at least.
Well then Mr. Lovelady, while well written, it does seem that your post wishes to put an end to the line of conversation that has been on going. It seems to have that "I believe what I believe and don't wish to talk about it anymore" feeling. Maybe not intended, but that air is there.
ReplyDeleteSide bar:
Thank you Mr. Klemencic. For the most part, the feeling is mutual, although at times .... Maybe that is from your "tired" periods.
I have not, Mr.Klemencic (though I don't believe you implied this in my direction) had my foundations shaken. I know what I believe in, and I am quite comfortable in that. I do not agree necessarily with organized religion as such. I have been witness to too much hypocrisy in that institution. That said, I do not totally disagree either. I guess you could say that i believe kn many different parts of many "religions" from many cultures.
Maybe in Mr. Lovelady's world, it is a constant struggle to keep a true heart to your GOD. I have indeed made peace with my God(s). Mr. Klemencic noted earlier, incidences from his past that were traumatic to ones he loved. I can completely say that I understand what they felt. We all probably have skeletons in our closets. Wouldn't you all agree?
Having then said apparently all I have to say at the end of this conversation, I will be waiting to see where you head next Mr. Lovelady. I suppose I also owe you an apology for "Blog Jacking" your forum, though I did not see any complaint.
Myself, I will be traveling abroad for the next month or so but will continue to, as time and circumstance allow, check in as often as I can.
Mr. Thorne
So what you is saying is that youre going to beleve thatand the rrest of us are up a creek? for an open forum, we sure do a lot of tippy toe around here.
ReplyDeleteJC - curios about your view on Catholic religion as you ar a Catholic. I think that input wuld be interesting.
also wonder what vulgarity your talking a bout. it seems that it has been prety clean hear other than some inaproppriat poking at persons opinion as fact.
Kelby - dosn't your quote from Rom 2:15 directly go aganst people not be hardwired for morality, wich you have argued against?
good day
I am confused on your interpretation of Romans 2 and I hope that in your research you read the entirety of Romans 2 and I am also not sure on Romans 1. My interpretation of the rest of Romans 1 is that we are all sinners and we all will be judged by God and we are not to judge others, lest we be judged as we are also doing sin. SO, according to this I owe you an apology as I have unjustly judged you to be judgmental and self-rightious as well as cut off from the rest of the world in another comment, though I will honestly admit to being angered by what the comments insinuated. According to Romans 1 and 2 there is only one God, so as a Christian, Kelby, don't you need to be referring only to the one and true God.
ReplyDeleteAs such, it also says that we are all sinners. We have no choice as we are born into sin and will be sinners regardless of our faith and it is only God who can judge this. Your comments on Catholics being less than Christian is unjust and unfair. Jesus did not teach us to judge others, but to judge ourselves through recognition of our sinfulness, asking for forgiveness, and repentance for our sins. Your comments continue to sound as though you have a doctrine and a God that is above, say mine for example, though I think that we both believe that it is through belief in Christ's life, death and resurrection that we may be saved from sin and have eternal life. If JC could comment on his 18 years of Catholic upbringing, were not also taught this? Of course, we constantly search for ways to sin and for ways to get better at not sinning, after all we are human and fell from Grace. God knows we are going to sin and he allows us that choice and he makes it clear in the bible what happens when we make a good choice and a bad choice in our hearts, society and eternity. Thus, the topic of free will is one to be debated and a discussion of how much our choices are influenced by outside stimulus, societal norms, mores and values...etc. Kelby, I continue to be concerned about how you address your feelings and put others down doing so, unintentional or not. IF you could see my face or the faces of your other bloggers and know full well who they are and what they stand for, would you state the same? In reading some comments it would seem that you do know some of your audience and yet knowing possible hurt that could be caused made such comments anyway. I do not believe, based on what I read in THE bible, not yours or mine, that this is your job, nor is it appropriate witnessing. What are you searching for within yourself? Is it the rest of us for whom you are making difference or yourself? And I don't agree that by having this blog available for people to comment on is doing enough to "make a difference," or giving people a loud enough voice. What are you doing with the opinions of your commentors? Again, I ask you, are you planning to lobby your feelings with other politicians to change laws and effect current legislation?
First of to Mr. Thorne, I was not specifically targeting you with that shaken comment. But I did say challenged as well. Where ever you're going have a great time, if it's that sort of trip.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking about the vulgarity sometimes associated with these conversations, I said that I really appreciate that kind of thing NOT happening here.
From my point of view I think Kelby left this blog fairly open to discussion. He said in his blog, "I believe" not "I know this for a fact and you're wrong if you believe otherwise!" Just because he's sure of himself and what he believes doesn't mean that anymore dialog is forbidden. Most have a set of beliefs that they hold to be true. Mr. Lovelady is just stating his.
I do think he is (correct me if I'm wrong) trying to jump to a different topic, I believe, the environment. So if he is seeking closure, so what? You can always e-mail him and keep the conversation going. This is his blog after all.
I might have been a little unclear about the Catholicism part. I grew up a catholic, I no longer am one. To explain my thoughts on the Catholic church is a task I'm not sure I'm up to, sorry. I will say that I think there are Catholics that will go to heaven and ones that will not. I also think that there are lot of people that call themselves Christians but do not bear the fruit of a Christian. Though I think you could say that there are people in every religion including Atheism and Agnosticism that would call themselves by a title but deep down not hold to the beliefs the title suggests.
To quote Matthew 7:1 (The do not judge or you too will be judged verse) and then close the Bible is fairly naive, in my opinion. If you look at all the verses talking about judging, the conclusion is that judging hypocritically is wrong but we are supposed to judge people, but do so in as a loving manner as possible. (See John 7:24, Matthew 7:2-5 and pretty much the rest of the Bible) If the Bible is true and people are going to Hell, as Mr. Lovelady and I believe it would be very unloving to know this and not do anything about it. That'd be like standing at an end of a bridge and not warning people that the bridge is out as they go speeding towards their deaths.
ReplyDeleteIt does not matter how many gods we believe there to be. What matters is how many there truly are, be it one or a million and then finding out what part we play in this whole thing. That is something worth spending a lifetime figuring out. Truth is the ultimate goal.
maybe the other person would like you to quote the Bible in it's hole form sinse by your definetion quoting any thing then and not the rest would be just closing the Bible i guess. that's just my opinion based on youre fairly arrigant statement. i read that in the pretty much the rest of the Bible part.
ReplyDeleteIf you guys would like to sit here and have me quote the entire Bible to you, I'd be alright with that.
ReplyDeleteI'm really having a hard following what the anonymous writer is trying to say. My point, which I thought I was fairly clear on is, it's wrong, in my opinion, to read one verse from the Bible about judging when there are many more verses about the topic in the Bible. The very next verse talks about judging.
My "Pretty much the rest of the Bible." statement, which seems to be the only part you read, was in part a joke and in part saying that there are a lot of verses that talk about judging.
I don't know what part of my statement is arrogant, but if you want to think that, guess I can't stop ya.
Funny, Mr Klemencic, that you would misquote someone as quoting Mathew 7:1 when it clearly states in the writers text that they are referring to the passages of Romans I and II. Perhaps you should read more THOROUGHLY a post before firing on it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you would like to comment on the grammar of others, perhaps you should re-read your own. Grievous omissions and typos exist. Poor is to pick on others' colors as you show your own.
Also noted, seeing as how you and Mr. Lovelady share identical views, and intimate knowledge of what he's doing, one could come to a few conclusions. The first being that you're in fact ARE Mr. Lovelady, which is unlikely, but all is possible in the realm of the hidden (read hiding behind your computer screen). The second, being the more likely choice, is that you are in fact just a lapdog. A "fanboyish" accessory looking for acceptance and hiding behind the laid out opinions of someone else. Third possibility being that you are good friends and speak about the blog in a non blog setting. But until I see more evidence that you can be your own man, I'll take what's behind door number two. (If you need an example of you showing your own in a compassionate, non-over opinionated way, your early minor disagreement regarding Catholics was a good start.)
And yes, if I'm allowed to think your statement is arrogant as are you of mine. Just a little food for thought. I'll try to speak clear, concise, and slowly for you in the future.
Kelby, if Mr Klemencic is correct, and we are in fact moving on and away from the subject of religion and on to something such as the environment, I commend your choice to finish and move on, though admittedly I would like to see you answer to the anonymous poster's inquiries at comment 26 in the prior and comment 5 in the current topic. It would be fair to say that we have beaten a dead horse long enough, and as both children of God (or whomever you see fit to worship) and citizens of the United States of America, we are all entitled to our own religious choices, beliefs, and stances. I'm glad you are firm in yours and would encourage you as a Christian and a potentially wise politician to refrain from forcing religious opinion on others, even if unintentional.
As the old Irish blessing goes:
“May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the foresight to know where you are going, and the insight to know when you have gone too far”
Mr. Good Day
Hello all and good Monday morning,
ReplyDeleteThank you all for the time and effort you are putting into this site. I'm not sure how many people have posted here, as there seems to be many anonymous posters, so I will try to answer as much as I can below. Feel free to let me know if I miss anything. I appreciate your comments and conversation. Thanks :)
First, to Mr. Thorne - I don't look at being a frequent commentor to be blog-jacking in anyway and appreciate any guidepost I can find when it comes to future posting. Thank you for the effort you have put in here and I wish you well in your trip abroad. I would caution you, as you go forward in your thoughts on this subject, to make sure you are not contradicting your own beliefs by saying you believe in 'many parts of many religions of many cultures'. However, that said, I know you are comfortable in what you believe. I know that I, too, am completely comfortable with my beliefs, and not trying to reconcile my beliefs everyday... but, that is going round the same bush again, so I won't go further. :)
Anony - Romans 2:15 talks about the conscience bearing witness. This statement is about the conscience being written on the hearts of men. John 8:9 also talks of people being convicted by their conscience. It is a place within us where God has left his mark; a sort of spirtual and moral guidepost built in to our flesh through the Spirit. I apologize for any confusion about my meaning.
To the next Anonymous - In regards to interpretation of Romans 1, I see it as God's punishing of sin through abandonment. In Rom. 18, God is said to be "... against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,". It continues on to talk of man turning away from God even as God has shown them himself (1:19 "... for God has shown it to them.") He has revealed himself, and as people turn away from God, he leaves them to their sin. In verse 24, when God pronounces "Therefore...", He is linking the people's hard hearts and unrighteousness to what follows; judgement.
Through this, then, we understand that we need to look unto God for our forgiveness. We must repent of our unrighteousness and except the gift that Jesus Christ has given; freedom from the enslavement of sin. Am I saying we Christians do not sin? Of course not... I sin and fall short every day of my life. But, as we grow closer to God, we become more aware of our personal sins, and more willing to fight against them.
I know that this type of conversation, being rooted in the basis of peoples beliefs, can be hard to have, which is why it's avoided so often in today's society. I will concede that I have passed judgement where I shouldn't have, but I always try to put forth my thoughts gently, and state clearly when I am saying something that is part of my personal belief system. That said, this site is open for all to read and comment on; and I appreciate the debate that is present. Thank you.
PS - I want to assure you that I would not fail to say my beliefs as they are in a face to face situation. I have no reason to hide who I am or what I believe, be it on this site or in person.
JC - Thank you for your compliments and understanding of what the mission of this site is. I appreciate your willingness to get out some personal details in an effort to make this conversation open and dynamic. I agree completely, and thank you for saying it, that Christians are hear to be a "light in the darkness" so to speak. We are told to proclaim the truth, even into the world's condemnation and judgement. I am sorry if anything I have said about Catholicism offends you. Perhaps you could email me at kelbylovelady@gmail.com if you want me to explain myself a bit more clearly than I have here. Thank you for your time and effort.
And, finally, to Mr. Good Day - I, first off, want to clarify things a bit here. Mr. Klemencic and I knew each other growing up, but have since been disconnected. At a chance meeting, we talked for a moment and I told him of this site. We do not conspire in anyway on what happens here. (We don't actually, see eachother ever) This site is our means of communication, and as we are both Christians, we share many of the same views. We are, however, two seperate people.
This posting on Morality was indeed meant to be and summation and conclusion to the past 2 weeks of discussion on this site. I think we could all debate this for years if we tried, but I think it's time to move on for now. I had mentioned moving to environmentalism in previous postings, so Mr. Klemencic didn't have inside access to information, he simply read what I have stated.
I have answered both comment 26 in the previous posting (see comment thread there) and comment 5 here.
I don't intend to force my religion on anyone. I am simply stating my beliefs and leaving the door open for debate and commentaries. I haven't tried to offend anyone at anytime and apologize if ever have. These subjects are touchy, I know, and I try to take care in how I present them. I am, however, an amateur writer and have many faults :)
Thank you for your involvement here and compliment about being a "potentially wise politician".
And I think about where I've been, where I'm going, and if I'm going to far everyday :) It's part of why I wanted this posting to sum things up for now.
Thank you all for your time and comments. It's very much appreciated. Let's keep the conversation going.
The anonymous writer said this, "we are not to judge others, lest we be judged" Which is practically a direct quote of Matthew 7:1. Sorry if that was unclear, but he was talking about Romans but quoted, what seems to be Matthew, so I went to Matthew. Whether it's Matthew 7 or Romans 2, my point was the same but I'll repeat it for the third time, quoting one part of the Bible without looking at other verses that talk about the same topic is, in my opinion, naive. It's wrong to pick out verses in the Bible without factoring what the rest of the Bible has to say about it, is that agreed on or not? No one opens a book and reads one sentence of it then closes it thinking they have a thorough understand of what the book is saying.
ReplyDeleteI said (And it's ridiculous I should have to quote myself) "I'm really having a hard following what the anonymous writer is trying to say." Two things: You're right that I have a spellings error here and there and if it's hard for you to understand me, let me know. Second, what I said up above was not trying to be offensive and I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how you would view it that way. Would it be offensive if someone was mumbling and I asked "Could you speak up, I can't hear what you're saying." The point being, could you be a little clearer so I can understand you and respond back.
ReplyDeleteI find you to be very comical Mr. Good Day.
ReplyDeleteGlad you find my satire humorous. If only I didn't feel the tinge of sarcasm that drives that statement, I might believe you more. Let me know if I'm incorrect.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, Have a
Mr Good Day
And for you my new friend:
"May you have -
Walls for the wind
And a roof for the rain,
And drinks beside the fire.
Laughter to cheer you
And those you love near you,
And all that your heart may desire."
-Celtic Blessing
Thank You all for your postings - they are much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteJC - I agree that too many people are willing to take on line of the Bible (or anything for that matter, like an interview) and run with it without having the context behind it. We must all take care when quoting anything to make sure we ourselves understand and can back up the context of what's being said. Excellent point!
Mr. Good Day - Thanks for joining in the conversation here. I hope you will continue to be a part of the talk here as we move forward. You are always welcome to join in, and it's appreciated.
And to all, I am hoping to put my next post up tommorow morning (if all goes as planned). Thanks for the patience in waiting for my writings. It becomes hard to find time to write, but I promise I am dedicated to this site and what it can be, and will keep soldiering on. Thank you all for your time and effort.
~Kelby