In a continuation of the post below, here is part two of my response to Mr. Brian McKinley's analysis of what liberalism is.
The next section put forth in the "Proud to be a Liberal" article by Mr. McKinley is as follows:
Liberalism is "Liberty." It is the freedom to do as your conscience dictates without impeding another's rights. Fleeing oppression in mother Europe, our founders established a nation where personal belief and self-determination are protected, not persecuted, where hard work is rewarded, not demanded, and where each person is bestowed with the ability to better his or her life because of citizenship, not class. Liberals believe in freedom of speech to protect us from political oppression. Liberals believe in sound regulations to protect us from economic oppression. Liberals believe in just laws to protect us from social oppression. And Liberals believe in quality education to protect us from the oppression of ignorance.
My first thoughts after looking at this part draw me back to the first line over and over, where it says '... the freedom to do as your conscience dictates'. This is being shown every day to be a major sticking point between conservatives and liberals. It was brought up in the comments on the previous post (thank you J.C. Klemencic). Perhaps a good place to start would be where I personally view this subject.
Liberalism holds to a moral relativism that is degrading the society. This relativism that is pushed onto people teaches that things may seem wrong to some people and right to others, and both are fine views. This view, then, appeals to the very basic, sinful side of human reasoning. It allows the person to justify their thoughts and actions, no matter what they are, or how selfish they are. For example, abortion as I see it, is murder of an unborn child. However, someone holding onto relativism can speak of the life of the mother, the quality of life the family will have, etc. and try to legitimize it all in their mind. Of course, even the thinnest veil of legitimacy is enough when your mind is wrapped up in relativism; which then convinces the liberal that anyone who doesn't think that way is 'behind the times' or 'not as sophisticated' as they.
Many conservatives, (not all, as I dare not lump all into this group), hold to a different set of moral beliefs. It can be called original sin (if the morality originates through the person's religious views) or I've also heard it said to be a black/white morality. Either way, it states that certain things in this world are right, and certain things are wrong. For example, murder and theft are wrong, where taking care of the poor and weak is right. By putting morality into these black and white categories of right and wrong, we are led to have certain misgivings that are held to strongly. This also provides a base with which to look at the world; it provides a reasoning behind the thoughts and conclusions one comes to about the world around them. There is, then, no need for long debates over whether something is moral or not. It simply is right, or it is wrong, end of story. I, personally, receive this moral view through my religion, though some come to it by simply looking at the world around them and understanding that there is right and wrong.
This morality is not 'out of touch' or 'behind the times' at all, but holds to what we all have in our conscience; what we all know to be right and wrong.
I don't mean to sound preachy here, but moral relativism, when pulled to it's conclusion, destroys all value of human life. If everyone who believed strongly in moral relativism, (even if they didn't realize that's what it is called), thought about what they were doing, this world would destroy itself immediately. There would be no reason to have children, as it is to much of a burden for the self-gratification seeking relativist. Besides, why not seek self-gratification, this world is all there is, right? Anyway, there would also be no reason to value human life at all. What makes us more valuable then, say, an animal, or a tree? (PETA comes to mind here) So, we could all just kill each other, and it wouldn't really matter. Besides, it might be seen as right and just in the killer's eyes to kill. How can he be wrong if there's no morality?
As you can see, it's a dangerous path. The only thing stopping a relativist from going that far is a little piece of the conscience drawing a line and not taking relativism to its full conclusion.
So, a conservative, (at least most conservatives), believes that there is a moral right and wrong, and uses it as a guide post with which to look at the world. It is not impeding someone else's rights. It is, simply, right or wrong. It is valuing human life. And, through valuing human life, a conservative then is brought to valuing human opinions, valuing human work ethic, valuing human freedom, and valuing human liberty. Conservatives do not believe in taking from the rich people to give to the poor. Conservatives believe in helping that poor person to work hard and raise themselves up from their situation into a better one.
Basically, the response to Mr. McKinley's entire look at 'Liberalism is Liberty' all comes down to where the morality comes from. That, also, of course dictates how you, the reader, will react to what I have just said, and really how this entire debate is framed.
I am at a loss of where to go from here, and this post is getting quite long, so I will leave this open ended for now and gather my thoughts on it some more. Feel free to leave comments below and let me know what you think. As always, thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts and show your involvement in the open debate that has made this country what it is today, and will continue to guide it to what it's future will be.
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Kelby
ReplyDeleteI thank you for your thoughts on these issues. There are to maney people who get way to ofended when you try to talk politics with them. The division in this country is growing witch is very scary to me. I hope more people will read and work together to resolve the issues we face. My question would be why is the left so angery?
Regards Tim B.
using abortion as an example of morality is a bit dangerous, don't you think? while there are obviously immoral uses for abortion (just like there are for everything from guns to pencils), there are cases where it really is not so black and white. to say that a baby out of an incestuous legion is normal or right, or that which is the product of rape, or even that which is confirmed to end in certain death for either itself or it's mother falls under a blanket of "that's just wrong" would make some question the logic or lack of logic in the morality at hand.
ReplyDeleteThank you both for taking the time to put in your thoughts here. I appreciate your willingness to speak in a public forum such as this.
ReplyDeleteTim B. - I agree that there is a major division growing larger and larger in this country. However, I'm not sure that it is something that cannot be overcome. There have always been differences in opinion as to the direction this country should go, ever since the beginning; these debates are what helped this country grow into what it is today and help keep it strong through the process of debates. The left, I think, tends to get angry when they are put down for the same reason you or I may at times do the same: they feel strongly about their opinions. This is a passionate issue. I truly wish, as you noted, that we could all meet on neutral ground and have true debate about the issues at hand. We may then finally be able to move forward.
To the other comment - As far as using abortion for an example goes, I understand how that may have not been the best to use as it is a truly touchy and sensitive issue and I apologize if this is an issue that some people have difficulty dealing with. I, personally, have very strong feelings one way on the issue, but I also understand where you are coming from. I see your point in how a lesser example may have been better here to get my point across and thank you for your input.
I would like to say, for the record, that abortion is a moral issue, plain and simple. I don't want to go heavily into this right now though, maybe on a future post. Or, as always, if you feel like getting more of my thoughts, I can be contacted at kelbylovelady@gmail.com.
Thank you both for your time and thoughts,
Kelby
"to say that a baby out of an incestuous legion is normal or right, or that which is the product of rape."
ReplyDeleteI struggle to see why we should punish the child (fetus if you prefer) for the errors of the parents, be it rape or incest. It's not really the fault of the baby that his/her mother was raped. Why punish the victim, when you should be punishing the rapist.
"even that which is confirmed to end in certain death for either itself"
This might come as a shocker to some people, but everyone dies. So to kill a baby because it's days are numbered is absurd. Everyone's days are numbered. If we followed that kind of logic further, you could justify any killing because, well, death is the only thing that's certain.
j.c.-
ReplyDeleteso someone you love dearly (girlfriend, wife, sister, whatever) is facing a pregnancy which will ultimately end in the death of them or their fetus for certain medical reasons, that's ok? Guess they're gonna die anyway.
And if one of those same people was raped by an unknown assailant (because a large # of rapists are never caught) we need to make sure that the victim of the rape suffers through a traumatic and unwanted pregnancy to what end? Adoption? Maybe. Resent, mental anguish, anger? I wonder... No thirteen year old girl who has been raped and become pregnant should have to suffer such a fate. It's the addition of insult to certain injury. That's just my opinion. Not every union is as holy as you would like to make the result sound.
As for the punishments for rapists, incestuous parents, etc. I can tell you are hardly befitting of the crime. But that's a whole other kettle of fish, isn't it.
Here's to our certain death,
The Devil's Advocate
To J.C. and the DA - Thank you both for your thoughts on the subject. I appreciate you taking your time to add to the conversation.
ReplyDeleteLet me add into the mix that this whole debate on abortion really comes down to one thing; when is a baby a human life? I firmly believe it to be from the moment of conception. Now as such, this human life has to be treated with value, because we are not animals, we are humans; we are infinetely more valuable. This child, whether coming through rape or incest, both terrible things which should be punished fully, is still a human, and should be protected as such, with all available technology. A baby in Britain 2 years ago was taken out of the mother at three months (still easily an abortable age), and the hospital raised it up carefully. It is now a perfectly healthy, happy child. Don't tell me that technology can't take care of these children. It's been proven.
Adoption is a perfectly good option for an "unwanted" baby. To use more facts, it has been shown that women who undergo abortion are at 138% more chance of going through long-term depression. Mental anguish? There you have it.
The problem here is that the adoption system has been so plugged up that those who truly want to adopt have to fight for years (and put lots of money towards it) to get an adoption. If the process were cleared up, this wouldn't be an issue. This is another example of government in the way of the people.
Of course, for the average person in moral relativity, holding on to evolutionary theory and carrying both these thoughts, hand in hand, out to their full end, human life has no value. (After all, we would then just be stupid animals, who have no reason to think at all.) Then, this whole debate means nothing. But that, is suppose, is a whole other kettle of fish... :)
Thank you both for your time, and here's hoping to more open debate in the future. Thank you.
-Kelby
And what right to we have as "humans" to call animals stupid and claim that we are "infinately more valuable" than a "stupid" animal? We are just as much animals as any other being on this planet.
ReplyDeleteHow can you say that animals are stupid? How can you say that that animals have no reason to think? I would seriously urge you to re-think your position on this statement. We as the "humans that are infinately more valuable" as you chose to put it, are the ones that are destroying the earth.
Believe me, the "stupid" animals would be far better off if humans knew their true place - walkinig beside, not above.
The percentage of pregnancies that will 100% end in the death of the mother or baby is so small it pretty much makes this question absurd. But, whether it were 100% or less than that, my wife and I would pray about it and then come to a conclusion based on what we feel God is telling us. Ideally, because Christian husbands are supposed to love their wives like Jesus Christ loves the church, I'd much rather take my wifes place then have her go through it, obviously that's not an option.
ReplyDeleteJust because a lot of rapists don't get caught does not mean they are unknown. Both of my sisters have been raped and my mother was almost raped, and all three of them knew who it was by. Most rapists don't get caught because the raped person doesn't report the rape out of fear.
The traumatic part of the whole act, the rape, will be something that the person raped will have to deal with for most likely some time if not the rest of their life, whether they have the baby or not. Why answer one horrible thing by doing another? Why not answer the rape with something (in my mind) noble and have the baby and give it to an adoption agency if they don't want to keep it.
I know someone that was a product of rape and he turned out great so don't try telling me that it's traumatic to the child all the time.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just because someone is unwanted doesn't mean you just discard them. That's pretty heartless and in many cases a crime.
A thirteen shouldn't have to face something like that. The horrible thing is the rape. It's unfortunate that the girl got pregnant but it's not right to answer something horrible with something even worse. But you won't agree with me, so whatever.
Modern day punishments for rapists are hardly befitting the crime, but they still deserve to be punished. Which would you prefer, don't punish a rapist, or punish them?
I'd like to know how Mr. Devils Advocate determines right and wrong. Please post on this blogs newest entry.
JC - It is truly a horrible thing that your sisters and mother have gone through and I feel for them greatly.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree whole heartedly with you and what you are saying here. Rape is terrible, deserving very high levels of punishment, more than is given out in today's justice system; and the answer to rape is not abortion. As you said, one wrong for another is not the way to go.
Thank you for your comments. They are appreciated and add greatly to the site, continuing it's purpose of having a place for open debate between people.
I am looking forward to hearing what the "Devils Advocate" has to say in response. I hope he does respond.
~Kelby Lovelady
JC-
ReplyDeleteIt is with the humblest and utmost sincerity that I express to you a condolence for that which has happened to your family. It would appear that perhaps it is time for me to retire my moniker and postings here as, now twice proven, advocacy of another opinion ends in hurt feelings and wounded pride. I know that which I feel, nothing more, nothing less. As I offend, I apologize.
I base my feelings on my personal knowledge gained from the birth of my three daughters, one son, and the marriage and Holy union with my wife. If you think for one instant that I would not want punishment to rain down on anyone that harmed them like Hell fire, then you are sorely mistaken. As for any consequence to their person due to any such atrocities, I would fully support them in which-so-ever way that they so would choose to remedy it.
I believe that there are moral and immoral choices. Not questions of moral relativisms, not a question of "I'm right, you're wrong", not "mine's bigger than yours", whatever you want to call it. There is a clear (or should be a clear) legal definition for much of what is right and wrong that we should abide by whether we are in accordance with it or not. The rest resides in your own personal Faith, upbringing, and personal knowledge base. A person has to live with their own sin. Do I speed? Yes. Is it illegal? Yes. I have learned to deal with it and have I dealt with the consequences of my moral inappropriateness (financially and otherwise). I don't speed so much any more. I'm working on it. But I digress. What you do is your business, not something that should be forced on someone else.
Which brings me to my finality. The comments on this site seem to lean towards "I'm right, you don't count". I'm guilty of it as well. We have taken a venue which could be well used to compare opinions and share thoughts and ideas and turned it into a boxing ring for idealism. Kelby, for my part in that, I apologize. I cannot speak for the rest of us. I would only ask that you all would take a moment to accept my apology for it. But if I may this one last time offend, and seeing as how "you won't agree with me, so whatever" ([sic] apathetic response, btw) there is nothing more to say.
Gracefully Or Not, Removed,
The Devil's Advocate/Josh Lovelady
DA/Josh ~ I am sorry that you feel as though the comments on this site are in the "I'm right, you don't count" vein. I think, personally, that the comments seen here are, in part, the type of conversation that need to happen in this country... let's ask eachother openly what each person really thinks about the issues. I do, however, wish no one into a spot where they feel they are being "attacked", or any such other feeling of pressure. I wish this only to be a free, open air discussion of issues that we all must face everyday.
ReplyDeleteI hope you will read this and accept the invitation to come back into conversation at anytime. This site will continue on, and surely something will come up that will spur thoughts in your mind. Feel free to join in, or, if you wish to comment in a more private way, email me at kelbylovelady@gmail.com.
Once again, thank you for the thoughts and conversation you have added to the site, and here's hoping to here more of your thoughts in the future.
~Kelby